Your dependence upon add-ons

[Tracy]

This is specific to the paid scripts (but even open source ones come into play).

The major question I am putting put forth is... how dependent are you upon 3rd party developers to provide what you (as the site owner/admin) consider a core base compared to what the developer of your script offers (or considers is adequate) to it's license holders (and ultimately users)? Is the package you are using a fairly full featured one (this leans towards Invision Community) or are they more "we give you a basic forum and you can get a resource manager and gallery but you want more.. pay more to outside developers and hope they stick around" attitude?
If you have had direct exposure to the major paid scripts, what have you found that are the major differences for those admins wanting to offer more to their users at the core level without having to spend hundreds (or in some cases thousands) of dollars that you may not recoup compared to their competitors?

Personally... I know with XenForo it is VERY dependent upon 3rd party developers when compared to the other paid scripts... but I'm so invested in it I honestly can't "afford" to change since I gain no inbound monies from my sites since they are ran free of ads or "membership fees".

This topic is more so that those investigating the various paid scripts can get a true opinion from those that have used any/all of the various paid scripts as a comparison. Every script has its fanbois... but elucidate on why you think that your choice is better than another. Realize... each paid script offers different core functions... and for some those may not be "important", but don't simply discount the fact that those may be "more" important" to others.
Basically... discourse on the strengths & weaknesses of the script you use compared to others.

Personally... my biggest complaint with my script of choice is their stubborn stance on pushing the extension of it off onto 3rd parties (many of which are not around long, and others have questionable coding ability).... many features that they ignore should in reality be core... especially considering that they are not a major paradigm shift from what they currently offer... only an extension of it.
One of my reasons for this topic is I have a domain that I am contemplating "extending" into actual use.. so first party input of what they see as strengths in their script and it being compared to other scripts would be of benefit to both a new admin and an "old timer" that may not be aware of other choices.

 

[Cedric]

I'm in the same boat as you Tracy.

The reason why I've chosen XenForo above any other forum script is the 3rd party add ons. No where is it matched. XenForo is superior due its 3rd party developers. I am dependent to upgrades or migrations because of 3rd party add ons. Is it ideal? Not at all. But it's something I've chosen for and would choose any time, any day. I would much rather customize my community, give it personality than to choose for a forum script that doesn't allow me to do this.

I've come at a point where I don't care for upgrades. The forum runs great as is and I feel no need to upgrade if I that means I would be losing half of the add ons.

 

[Tracy]

I've come at a point where I don't care for upgrades. The forum runs great as is and I feel no need to upgrade if I that means I would be losing half of the add ons.

I'm, pretty much the same... and I'm afraid that this "position" is really going to hurt certain developers... .in the decade+ I've been with XenForo... I've seen developers come and go... and frequently many of those 3rd party add-ons were "vital" to site admins.. even though they could have easily been implemented in core... but XF developers made a conscious decision to push those functions off onto others. And when those 3rd party developers decide to stop... well, the official XF stance appears to be "screw you, we only offer ZZZ, you want more... cut loose with the money to a 3rd party developer that may stay around for a year or so". Meanwhile you see other developers that are more inclined to fold functions directly into the core of the script.
It's one of the reasons I STRONGLY recommend any potential admin/script purchaser to look VERY carefully at the features/functions offered and whether that developers offering will be in a format that they prefer (SaaS vs self-hosted).
The pity is... we aren't really being given a lot of choice now. It's pretty much the developers telling those that give them the money "You do it our way or take the highway".

Granted... with XF there are a few core, reliable developers.. but when you start seeing some getting 50+ add-ons developed for the script.. you honestly have to start wondering WHY they have to create that many when many of them are what most would consider offering core functionality.
I can't speak to IPS or WoltLab at that level as I don't have current licenses...and honestly.. I doubt they would choose to "donate" one since I can be somewhat "abrasive/aggressive" with issues I find and it tends to torque certain developers off since I don't worship them (simply look at my XF permanent ban as case in point). It goes back to calling (and this may piss some politically correct off due to excessive sensitivity... but I'm an old fart so shove it) a spade a spade. Personally.. I believe that ANY busines owner has to have a thic sking... seems that XF has a thin outside layer onion one.

 

[Cedric]

I'm, pretty much the same... and I'm afraid that this "position" is really going to hurt certain developers... .in the decade+ I've been with XenForo... I've seen developers come and go... and frequently many of those 3rd party add-ons were "vital" to site admins.. even though they could have easily been implemented in core... but XF developers made a conscious decision to push those functions off onto others. And when those 3rd party developers decide to stop... well, the official XF stance appears to be "screw you, we only offer ZZZ, you want more... cut loose with the money to a 3rd party developer that may stay around for a year or so". Meanwhile you see developers that are more inclined to fold functions directly into the core of the script.
It's one of the reasons I STRONGLY recommend any potential admin/script purchaser to look VERY carefully at the features/functions offered and whether that developers offering will be in a format that they prefer (SaaS vs self-hosted).
The pity is... we aren't really being given a lot of choice now. It's pretty much the developers telling those that give them the money "You do it our way or take the highway".

Granted... with XF there are a few core, reliable developers.. but when you start seeing some getting 50+ add-ons developed for the script.. you honestly have to start wondering WHY they have to create that many when many of them are what most would consider offering core functionality.
I can't speak to IPS or WoltLab at that level as I don't have current licenses...and honestly.. I doubt they would choose to "donate" one since I can be somewhat "abrasive" with issues I find and it tends to torque certain developers off since I don't worship them.

I don't think they'd donate either.

But yes, if only XF would hire some respective 3rd party devs, we would see much faster development, much better features and way less need for 3rd party add ons. That would be a good step in the right direction. But revenue? Not so much in their favor. Which is, let's be honest, all they care for.

Not just XF.

 

[Tracy]

But revenue? Not so much in their favor. Which is, let's be honest, all they care for.

Ironically.... there are folks already "bitching" about their "sale" on XenForo renewals... most assumed it was because a new version was soon to come out... but they "quickly" found out that wasn't. It was most likely that Xenforo needed the extra money because people were choosing not to renew because they were not offering crap to them. I honestly don't expect XenForo (at their current level of advancement/license holder engagement) to exist for more than a few more years.
The pity is.. IMHO, XenForo had a great path forward for it.. but their developers were SO stuck in their view they were telling their actual license holders that "your opinion doesn't mean crap to us".
I like the script.. but I've lost all faith in the developers. And it's rather ironic when they are pressed to the fire.. they start banning folks that don't walk their line.
Eventually I foresee myself migrating away from XenForo to a more full featured offering... the ONLY thing that keeps me with XenForo currently is the quality of XenAddons offerings. It sure isn't what XenForo is offering core.

I don't think they'd donate either.

Yeah.. I am rather "in your face" when I see crap being spread.... and it does tend to offend them. Guess it comes from a career of dealing with more "important" stuff than "hurt feelers"...

 

[Cedric]

Ironically.... there are folks already "bitching" about their "sale" on XenForo renewals... most assumed it was because a new version was soon to come out... but they "quickly" found out that wasn't. It was most likely that needed the extra money because people were choosing not to renew because they were not offering crap to them. I honestly don't expect XenForo (at their current level of advancement/license holder engagement) to exist for more than a few more years.
The pity is.. IMHO, XenForo had a great path forward for it.. but their developers were SO stuck in their view they were telling their actual license holders that "your opinion doesn't mean crap to us".
I like the script.. but I've lost all faith in the developers. And it's rather ironic when they are pressed to the fire.. they start banning folks that don't walk their line.

Of course it was because they wanted money. It was likely a shitty year with less sales and renewals than before. You can only fool your client once, lol. While I'm not waiting for it, I'm curious to see what 3.0 will look like. If it's really so innovative as they claim it will be. It's been rather quiet since their last HYS.

On the other hand, you can say whatever you want about IPS, but their v5 will at least have some ground breaking innovation. I don't see XF doing that with 3.0. But let's give them the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Tracy]

On the other hand, you can say whatever you want about IPS, but their v5 will at least have some ground breaking innovation. I don't see XF doing that with 3.0. But let's give them the benefit of the doubt.

You have NEVER seen me complain about what IPS offers their license holders (other than the forcing of SaaS in the VERY near future). As far as what they offer core in the script to their license holders... they are beating XenForo like a (and no, this again is not politically correctly but I never claimed to be) like a bastard step-child.
What you HAVE seen me complain about is their business decisions... which lay with a certain few.

Of course it was because they wanted money. It was likely a shitty year with less sales and renewals than before

And that is my point.. when you choose to feed your license holders "shit" (you know, those who keep your company afloat) as far as features go and your license holders decide "you know, you aren't giving us crap for our users, so we aren't going to upgrade at the current price" (and you are REALLY desperate for monies). the next call is a VERY rare "special sale" of license upgrades. The only other time I remember this happening (or similar) was during the vB debacle... and it was a "thank you" from the XenForo developers for actually sticking with them even though they weren't (even then) giving you shit for your dollar).

 

[Cedric]

You have NEVER seen me complain about what IPS offers their license holders (other than the forcing of SaaS in the VERY near future). As far as what they offer core in the script to their license holders... they are beating XenForo like a (and no, this again is not politically correctly but I never claimed to be) like a bastard step-child.
What you HAVE seen me complain about is their business decisions... which lay with a certain few.

That's true. Didn't explicitly mean you but more generally speaking. While you may question their action towards hobbyists, we all know they are not their main target. Yet we all know who has the most reliability and sustainability in the coming years.

And that is my point.. when you choose to feed your license holders "shit" (you know, those who keep your company afloat) as far as features go and your license holders decide "you know, you aren't giving us crap for our users, so we aren't going to upgrade at the current price" (and you are REALLY desperate for monies)AA ibw ga... the next call is a VERY rare "special sale" of license upgrades. The only other time I remember this happening (or similar) was during the vB debacle... and it was a "thank you" from the XenForo developers for actually sticking with them even though they weren't (even then) giving you shit for your dollar).

Like I said, I don't care for upgrades but I still count on them being developed and released soon. I don't renew my licenses unless I see it's worthwhile. And their sales tactics were a poor effort trying to gather money while people knew (or should've known) nothing was coming in return anytime soon. So if they renewed, they're part of the problem.

 

[Tracy]

While you may question their action towards hobbyists, we all know they are not their main target.

Yeppers.. but they still haven't dropped the pair to be able to acknowledge that... they are still dependent upon a noticeable segment of those "bastard step-children hobbyist license holders" to keep them afloat.
And honesty.. I don't really EVER see them being able to subsist at a level that they desire without the participation of those "crappy" hobbyist license holders... You know.. folks like me who want to provide a service but not rape their users to provide it (or have deep pockets because the raping is going on in another venue).

Like I said... I would NEVER expect any of the current paid script holders to ever offer me a copy to use... as I am (and I freely admit it) somewhat demanding on what I expect.
My bluntness/abrasiveness is one of the reasons that those developers over at XenForo decided they were apparently tired of "being called out" on their BS and chose to issue a permanent ban. No big deal.. I have ticket support and I WILL use it.. even in areas that they may "think" it doesn't apply. You deny a paid license holder community support.. then that support now becomes incumbent upon you as a provider, even if it deals with "styling issues" which you may not want to deal with.... as long as the interface is core to the script.... honestly... I don't think they really think before they act.
Granted... there were other issues in play in my life at the time.. but overall.. I really don't have an issue with calling ANYONE out when I think they are feeding a line of BS.. seems that the XenForo developers have rather thin "onion" skins and can't stand being confronted with their perceived (and in many cases factually shown) lacking in offerings.
Was I somewhat "heavy" on Chris.. yep.. but sorry... he is the one that stepped up to the pate and never did answer the question he was called out on. Do I feel bad for bringing heat on Chris.. yep.. but sometimes someone has to take a bullet. In a decade I can count on one hand the number of times when I needed XenForo's direct support. Now I'll simply use what I pay for, and expect support since they deny it in any other process.

 

[Oblivion Knight]

Incredibly so. I'd like to think I generally have add-on developers sussed, and who I do and don't want to do business with. I do fear for the future though, there seems to be fewer and fewer active developers.

Umbrella Online is concurrently running over 100 fully up-to-date add-ons. I keep trying to cut down, but then happen to want to be able to do something that I otherwise can't. It is also currently income-less.

I renewed my license and picked up the Resource Manager during the aforementioned sale. I'd been holding off because like you say, core XF development hasn't really given us much of late.. I am confident they'll produce the good during the year though and both XF 2.3 and 3.0 will be released.

I have ticket support and I WILL use it.. even in areas that they may "think" it doesn't apply. You deny a paid license holder community support.. then that support now becomes incumbent upon you as a provider, even if it deals with "styling issues" which you may not want to deal with.... as long as the interface is core to the script....

Not wanting to cause an argument, but I'd disagree if only your posting privileges have been revoked. Many questions can be answered via a search, and I don't believe styling issues are for them to deal with. Anything beyond the default theme and setup is for YOU to handle. Part of the risk you run with customisation.

 

[joelr]

I was actually just thinking about this issue from the perspective of IPS over the weekend.

Interestingly, the IPS model is less and less dependent on 3rd party mods (or fostering a 3rd party environment) and more and more on the system. IPS is becoming more of a platform, but one in which "you own the data" but not the features. Traditional legacy forums really celebrated owning and customizing the features and the data.

It's one of those things where, if you stay with IPS, you're going to need deeper pockets and to be more selective with features that really matter to you. No more "let's try this mod for fun."

 

[Cedric]

I was actually just thinking about this issue from the perspective of IPS over the weekend.

Interestingly, the IPS model is less and less dependent on 3rd party mods (or fostering a 3rd party environment) and more and more on the system. IPS is becoming more of a platform, but one in which "you own the data" but not the features. Traditional legacy forums really celebrated owning and customizing the features and the data.

It's one of those things where, if you stay with IPS, you're going to need deeper pockets and to be more selective with features that really matter to you. No more "let's try this mod for fun."

Yep. And with v5 you really notice to focus on content. Not a bad thing. But you’ll need to offer something real of value.

IPS would however be far more attractive to other users including me if it had a much larger 3rd party market. But I’m sure they don’t need me, other users or a 3rd party market.

 

[Tracy]

and I don't believe styling issues are for them to deal with

Customize styling I agree with, but the question that was put forth to them was core code of a native function (specifically was looking for a CSS in their default shipping style) as I had a user comment on some visibility issues and since can't post about it possibly being a bug you are left with no choice but to inquire via ticket on how to modify it.

 

[Tracy]

Not wanting to cause an argument, but I'd disagree if only your posting privileges have been revoked. Many questions can be answered via a search, and I don't believe styling issues are for them to deal with. Anything beyond the default theme and setup is for YOU to handle. Part of the risk you run with customisation.

Here is a classic case... a default style for XenForo with NO 3rd party add-ons enabled.
The landing page of XFMG.



And when you choose a gallery item THIS is what you see when you choose the image on the right.




Can you see what the issue is... could other license holders provide guidance.. most definitely.. but now they (the XF devlopers) are going to have to spend the time trouble shooting the issue as any 3rd party style and add-ons have been eliminated... and I've already done "due diligence" in tracking down the issue. The above is with a default XenForo style with NO 3rd party add-ons enabled. We shall see how efficient and effective they are in their response... I honestly don't have a lot of faith as they tend to tell you to "try a demo on our site and see if it works"... guess what... I don't frigging run my site as a demo on their offering. What is shown above IS a "default XenForo install" with NO 3rd party add-ons enabled and the server aspect (CloudFlare) not being outside the norm.
In the same vein... trying to share an image on FB page gives me this... the image in the background is what is SUPPOSED to be shared... but you can see what is being shared (a prior shared image).


ALL of those issues now have to be directly supported (and investigated) by XenForo developers/staff directly... and since they have prevented me from getting support from other license holders, it is even MORE incumbent upon them to provide adequate support if they don't want their hands slapped or deal with any consequences.

 

[Dismal_Bliss]

I'm on IPS with all my communities and since it's a pretty feature-complete system out of the box, I do not have any dependance on 3rd party apps. However, there are a handful that I have and enjoy, from themes, to admin features, and to some user-sided features (like the Bookmarks plugin). Usually the way I end up with these is my members will request a feature. I'll go a-lookin' for in the Market Place (now the Provider Directory) and will usually find it.

Sure, there are only a handful and a half of 3rd party devs over at IPS, but they are dedicated, talented, and can or have already wrote scripts for just about everything. Invision may be one of the two most expensive options, but their development is second to none. That's what happens when you are actually profiting off your product.

 

[Tracy]

and since they have prevented me from getting support from other license holders, it is even MORE incumbent upon them to provide adequate support if they don't want their hands slapped or deal with any consequences.

And guess who ultimately resolved the issue without jumping through numerous developer hoops. If you guessed other than the developer.. you win the kewpie doll.
I would have gladly posted the issues over on their site (and the resolution) if having access.. but I resolved it myself... and they can simply chase down the rabbit trail when another user has the same issue that could be resolved by what I found (and what I did not advise them of the eventual resolution of).
Want to deny me forum assistance.. guess what.. my finding a resolution to an issue that very likely will affect others comes into play when I resolve my problem and choose to not provide you (the developer) with the resolution.
No, I'm not a developer/programmer... but I am an experienced user of the software.
Some of us that have been using specific scripts for a decade plus do have valuable knowledge... even if some of our interactions with you "burn" you as developers and that pisses you off. So be happy with spending that extra time now on and relying on those "dedicated" few who continue to provide additional support that the developer is sorely lacking in. They can't cover the lackadaisical attitude that the developer presents in their offering.
And no.. this is not directed at Xenforo specifically.. because I've also pissed of the IPS/Invision Community/IPS/Whatever they have changed to this month developers.
It's rather ironic how easily butt-hurt developers can get... they really need to learn the ability of "thick skin".
Can't stand the heat.. then get out of the frigging fire as you have no authority in dealing with customers that desire to hold your feet to the fire.

 

[Tracy]

It's been rather quiet since their last HYS.

Been doing some visiting as a guest over there... and see that the complaints are starting back up about their lack of discourse after promising to "do better". I think I've mentioned before about developers and the old saying about leopards and spots (but that was referring to IPS, but XF has the same apparent issue). They are creatures of habit and repeat their actions... they just can't help themselves.

They guy I sold my "spare" XF license (and site) to commented to me recently in a discussion that from using my site he thought the software was far beyond others sites that he was a member of. It wasn't until I made him staff on my site and he purchased my old one and started administering it that he realized how dependent my site was on add-ons for what it offers and how bare bones his is without them.
He also commented on the fact that he was given a hard time by a developer over there after being involved in a discussion on the XF site about a FB issue he was able to log in on my site with his FB account (it's not enabled on his site). The user he was involved with then tried it as a new user on my site and it didn't work. Brandon told me about that and I got it fixed on my site and he wanted to know how. I told him what I had to do but also asked him why he was wanting to know since he did not use it on his site. He told me he was trying to help a user out on the XF site and I told him to not relay that fix over on their. Apparently he commented to that user that it looked like it was fixed on my site now (and used the screen shot I sent him in our site conversation) but did say he was asked not to share the fix.
Seems a certain 3rd party developer had problems with that. I have warned Brandon about the "developer attitude" over on the XF site and told him to tread very lightly.