A new open source forum software

[Tyrsson]

I don't think it's clear to people how much effort that really is.

Most will not even understand what a colossal understatement this is.

 

[Tyrsson]

As far as new forum software.... Ive been considering it.... But like @Arantor Im just not sure its worth it.

 

[Arantor]

Hey, I opened a thread here to braindump feature suggestions, it turned into a 'unless you're doing this for money, don't bother, and even then don't bother' discussion. If I couldn't get people who already like forums interested in the idea, what's the point of anything?

 

[Tyrsson]

Hey, I opened a thread here to braindump feature suggestions, it turned into a 'unless you're doing this for money, don't bother, and even then don't bother' discussion. If I couldn't get people who already like forums interested in the idea, what's the point of anything?

Yea, I read it.

Honestly, if I was going to do it I would really not have any plans to finish the entire application. I would just simply be doing it as a "here is what 2-4 motivated people can do when they have clearly defined goals, and a proper plan". Yes, you know which project I'm talking about.

2.1.3 -> migrate to OO -> 3.0 really thats a huge amount of work, and it would require a major release because of the BC. No new anything. Just make it work OO.
Then start the 3.0 release cycle.

But, you also know, that since it was not "them" they would end up not using a single line of it and it would set the project back even further because then not only would they have to modify what little plan they have, it could not possibly contain any ideas of what was just done. No idea how that is supposed to === every getting anything finished.

 

[Jason]

Personally I'm not convinced that a responsive theme is as important as it's commonly made out to be. Forums are by their nature meant for long(er)-form discussion, an idea directly at odds with a mobile interface. Typing on small touchscreens is not a pleasant experience, which is a big part of why major social media today is image/video based.

What I would want from a new kid on the block is to acknowledge this fact and focus on making an excellent desktop interface. Desktop users more likely to want to engage with long-form content anyway, you aren't gaining much in your community by having a bunch of people browsing on their phones or posting single-sentence posts on tiny touchscreen keyboards.

Only around 10 percent of users are non-mobile, though.

 

[Tyrsson]

It's actually a lot more complicated than 10% and 90%.

A lot of those numbers depend on where those users are around the world (among many other factors). Also, there are many users (myself included) that may check up on the recent post etc and read them, but I will wait and reply (even in slack) when I am on my laptop or desktop due to most of my replies including code snippets or formatted text. Which is not fun on a mobile. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Arantor]

2.1.3 -> migrate to OO

Their roadmap for the next year plus is solely bug fixes. They literally have no roadmap beyond 2.1 being out of RC status. But also migrating to OO doesn't... really... get you anything you didn't already have before unless you're doing so much more than *just* going OO. You need an entire entity system (similar to XF's) around it to make that actually viable.

In any case that project told me to my face that the reason they can't get anything done is my ego, so I bid them good day and left them to it.

I would just simply be doing it as a "here is what 2-4 motivated people can do when they have clearly defined goals, and a proper plan"

But as I said, this was the context in which I framed it, and I *still* had people actively trying to talk me out of doing it. Nowhere in that thread did I suggest I was on my own, or that I didn't have thoughts on building from scratch, from brand upwards through importers, through everything else, and I couldn't even sell people on the concept of a forum that did something a bit different.

At this point I'm not sure how much I really care about a new forum software, if only because everything out there (even Waterhole that only got a public debut this week) resembles what's already out there, and doesn't appear to solve any new problems. What I proposed would solve problems others aren't even tackling yet, but it's too far away from the comfort zone of the old guard users, and probably not close enough to the would-be next generation of users.

It's also interesting how many people around me are telling me I should just go for it - and yet I am the most hesitant I have ever been about a project, basically because of a handful of nay-sayers, and that includes some of the stuff I've done where 7-figure budgets were on the line.

 

[Tyrsson]

Which is why I have most started just focusing on building modules and packages for the frameworks I use. It still helps people, other developers, which ends up helping users. Plus the actual process of developing those are much more pleasant since nearly all of the projects I build starts as something I am already building, then I see a better way to provide it to the framework without my use case and I abstract it out. Well, there are a couple more that are in the works that are much more complicated than that but you get the idea. Im sure you have done similar for Laravel at some point and maybe others.

 

[joelr]

Hey, I opened a thread here to braindump feature suggestions, it turned into a 'unless you're doing this for money, don't bother, and even then don't bother' discussion. If I couldn't get people who already like forums interested in the idea, what's the point of anything?

Because you're asking people who already have highly polished forum platforms if they're going to be interested in an untested, unproven, not built yet system 🤷‍♂️😘. You were defining forum features that we take for granted.

Also, other forums are popping up all the time:
Waterhole.dev

 

[Arantor]

I wasn't even that far along, I was 'would the idea *at all* be interesting', given that I had specific plans to tackle specific things already known as deficiencies in the existing polished software. But you and Tracy made it very clear that it wasn't even worth thinking about because god forbid there should be *discussion* of features or what might actually be game-changing to consider. No, you just had to spend all the time and effort trashing the lack of business model (where none was necessary)

As to your last point in that particular topic, whether I'd thought about building on existing platforms... does the name Wedge ring any bells?

And yes, Waterhole, by one of the guys who founded Flarum (and I think he was even involved in PunBB before that, or esoTalk or FluxBB, one of ancestors), but just like Flarum, the reliance on Laravel immediately locks out a lot of shared hosting options.

I haven't had time for a proper test drive yet, but on the surface it looks a lot like a more punchy version of Flarum, so I am intrigued as to what the differences are.

 

[Tracy]

But you and Tracy made it very clear that it wasn't even worth thinking about because god forbid there should be *discussion* of features or what might actually be game-changing to consider. No, you just had to spend all the time and effort trashing the lack of business model (where none was necessary)

My point was.... why re-invent the wheel..... it's a lot of work for not much "benefit".
Now, something like a framework with modules that you could use... oh, wait...that's already done with Wotlab and IPS.
I think you would be better served by looking at something like those last two, and then creating module(s) that would extend them in a manner that their current developers don't do. No, it's not as "neat" as saying "hey, we created this entire platform that does this"... but once more, why re-invent the wheel?

As for "locking out shared hosting options"... sometimes to advance a platform, that happens. Look at IPS and their PHP restrictions.... I think Wotlab is the same way. If your shared hosting provider doesn't do at least PHP 8 (and it may be now PHP 8.1) then you can't play. It weeds out a LOT of those low-end/cheap shared hosting providers. But sometimes for needs/requirements that happens.

 

[Arantor]

Now, something like a framework with modules that you could use... oh, wait...that's already done with Wotlab and IPS.

Except for the one point you bothered to make, that these platforms silo things. They're never going to stop being siloes until they stop selling the components separately. I had zero intention of making them siloes to begin with. But that's also why you need to start from scratch because none of the open source ones can either...

Look at IPS and their PHP restrictions.... I think Wotlab is the same way. If your shared hosting provider doesn't do at least PHP 8 (and it may be now PHP 8.1) then you can't play.

You mean 'only accepting the versions of PHP that PHP themselves support'. Even PHP 8.0 is on life support with the official PHP team at this point, and it'll go EOL for even security patches from the official team in November when the next PHP version comes out.

 

[Tracy]

Except for the one point you bothered to make, that these platforms silo things. They're never going to stop being siloes until they stop selling the components separately. I had zero intention of making them siloes to begin with. But that's also why you need to start from scratch because none of the open source ones can either...

If your core is written correctly, you can keep that "silo" aspect out of it. The issue is, there has been no big desire by any current script writers to get around that.... and a "new kid on the block" isn't going to knock Wotlab, IPS or XF (or even phpBB, myBB or SMF) off their positions. I mean, if you have lots of spare time and nothing else to do... go for it. But don't be surprised when it doesn't do much other than give you a feeling of satisfaction for "look I/we did that".

I can't speak to IPS/Wotlab, but the base infrastructure appears to be present in XF that one could "code" their add-ons to not silo off so much (but once more, for discovery, you are then going to have to depend on additional features that are not typically available on shared hosting like ES). The problem with XF is that no matter what you did with add-ons/modules, the core system will still be siloed off.

You mean 'only accepting the versions of PHP that PHP themselves support'. Even PHP 8.0 is on life support with the official PHP team at this point, and it'll go EOL for even security patches from the official team in November when the next PHP version comes out.

Yes... but remember also... certain Linux installs maintain their OWN PHP repository, and they keep it "secure/updated" for the period that OS package is valid (Ubuntu LTS and similar) with any severe security issues backported into it. Not everyone pulls in their PHP direct from php.org repositories.

 

[Arantor]

If your core is written correctly, you can keep that "silo" aspect out of it. The issue is, there has been no big desire by any current script writers to get around that.... and a "new kid on the block" isn't going to knock Wotlab, IPS or XF (or even phpBB, myBB or SMF) off their positions. I mean, if you have lots of spare time and nothing else to do... go for it. But don't be surprised when it doesn't do much other than give you a feeling of satisfaction for "look I/we did that".

Well, I was at least mildly hopeful that people who like forums would be more inclined to at least be 'that sounds neat, let me know when there's something I can see' rather than 'don't even bother, it'll be rubbish'.

Yes... but remember also... certain Linux installs maintain their OWN PHP repository, and they keep it "secure/updated" for the period that OS package is valid (Ubuntu LTS and similar) with any severe security issues backported into it. Not everyone pulls in their PHP direct from php.org repositories.

I am very much aware of this. I'm just saying, that's where PHP itself thinks is the baseline. Also, no-one is getting packages from php.org, since that's not the PHP site...

But on the flip side you do very much have to trust the folks in - say - Ubuntu that they're pulling *all* the fixes in, not just the versions that are actively fixed by PHP itself. There's certainly been times where that's not been the case where in-the-wild PHP vulnerabilities were not fixed (promptly, at least, in most cases) in Debian and upstreams.

 

[joelr]

No, you just had to spend all the time and effort trashing the lack of business model (where none was necessary)

I didn't mean to come across as negative on your suggestion. Of course the idea of improving forum software is interesting! Removing the silos of content is something that I've passionately raised to IPS for many years now.

 

[Tracy]

han 'don't even bother, it'll be rubbish'.

I don't think think anyone said that..... but simply that the forum world is already "heavy" with scripts, many of which are well established, unless you came up with something earth-shattering, it' would be hard to get traction.... and that unless you just had gobs of free time, it ultimately wouldn't be worth it as adoption most likely would not be that high, and you would only be doing it mainly for yourself and enjoyment. I think working to try to extend a current "base" like with Wotlab or IPS may be "better" time spent. I don't know with IPS if you can even purchase the base as a standalone? Haven't been over there in a long time.
Look at Wotlab as a classic example... great script, but outside the EU area, adoption of it is not that high.

I am very much aware of this. I'm just saying, that's where PHP itself thinks is the baseline. Also, no-one is getting packages from php.org, since that's not the PHP site...

yep, it's actually php.net... and as you can tell, I don't have it included in my repository list or I would have quickly caught that.... nginx is serviced from the .ORG domain extension.... and it's a higher priority of concern for me than PHP is.

But on the flip side you do very much have to trust the folks in - say - Ubuntu that they're pulling *all* the fixes in

I think I fairly clearly stated that

with any severe security issues backported into it

.... which is the important aspect. New "processes" are not important if your script has no use for them.... and there are PLENTY of scripts that don't play well with PHP 8.0, much less PHP 8.1. In fact, XF is only "validated" against 8.0, and 8.1-> is not officially supported, although they accept bug reports for it towards a newer version being compliant.
And as for Debian... Debian is KNOWN to be the "slow poke" in getting "new" stuff out as they concentrate more on stability than say Ubuntu. Of the two, if you wanted "cutting edge" you went with Ubuntu. Stability went to Debian. But that is also one of the reasons I settled on a Redhat based OS.

 

[Arantor]

I don't know with IPS if you can even purchase the base as a standalone?

You get the core plus Calendar.

I do already have a full IPS suite licence, along with Woltlab Forum + Gallery. I gave my XF licence away though, no need for it.

The problem with building heavily on a platform I don't own is 'what if they change something fundamental in a future version' which is a nightmare to deal with.

I should also add, in case it needed clarifying... I've been there. I know what it takes to build on an existing platform. I spent thousands of hours building stuff on SMF to varying degrees (up to and including complete retrofits of the theme system from scratch), been there, done that, that's not interesting and reverse engineering around the limitations - especially in terms of de-siloing - is actually more difficult than it sounds like it would be.

 

[joelr]

By the way, the intention behind Tracy and my original points are well-intended. Like, it's okay - and probably a good thing - if you incorporate commercial success of some sort if you were to pursue this kind of project. Being compensated is actually not a bad thing. Passion doesn't pay the bills or buy groceries.

ElkeArte, Wedge, Misago and all of these other indie software platforms are "interesting", but ultimately non-impactful.

 

[Arantor]

That's the thing, I thought you meant well, but it was thoroughly counterproductive. You see, there's several factors at work - I'm in the position where I already have income, I don't *need* to be paid for this, moreover I know full well I'm not 'good' at business. I was OK as a freelancer, but it didn't exactly fill me with happy thoughts, but being a startup is a level of hassle I don't want, don't need and in my mind is counterproductive to actually building the thing that's important.

More recently I'm mindful of things like the Nickpic situation - if you hadn't heard (and there was no reason for you to have done so), Nickpic was a one-man band who had set up a free image hosting service, ostensibly for the roleplay community. He was well liked, well respected and so on - and yet, he was comprehensively taken down by a targeted attack from within the RP community *because he was popular*. Everyone loses because one person went out of their way to target him. And it wasn't even illegal images, it was just dubious and sketchy enough, and he was co-operating with the FBI in the investigation but the hosting company underneath pulled the plug. If this is what an ecosystem can do to someone that is actually *liked*, while dealing with a serious illness, what the hell chance do I have?

Better to avoid that with just going open source, because I have neither the temperament nor patience for dealing with that sort of nonsense. But this is also a fact I know about me which is why I'd already started lining up other people in the project for the roles that I knew I couldn't do.

It wasn't just me that got disheartened on seeing the comments here, because as I noted, if I couldn't encourage people already in the ecosystem with the possibility of something different, what chance did I ever stand? I'm not a marketer, I'm not a businessman - I bring in other people for these roles. But what I do is *build things*. I build things well enough to already have money in the bank and prop up entire businesses. But I needed to gather data on shaping that build.

There's already plenty on the table I've shared here, there's more I haven't shared. There's also been some research I've been doing on other forums to talk to different types of demogrpahics about what they want.

For example, people talk about 'oh Gen Z use Discord' but actually if you spend any real amount of time on Discord, you realise that actually you (and they) have the *same issues* as you have on existing forums. The hurdles to jump through to get started (ironically worse because you're already signed in and still have to jump through hoops), followed by 'where do I post', and worse, for any server of any size... it's just *noise*. (One Discord I got dragged into via Patreon is so noisy that in the last 2 minutes, there are entire screenfuls of text in multiple channels. I don't know how anybody can realistically keep up with that.)