Trump at it Again

[Carlos]

You REALLY need to do more research. Tariff's (in almost every case) are what are commonly referred to as a hidden tax.

I went over this; product gets shipped, gets through the front door, is taxed to the sanctioned country. Like the example i used for China. Its happening even under a Biden administration. The high prices is passed onto the consumer.

The end result from them is YOU the CONSUMER pays that additional fee, not the manufacturer and rarely the importer/seller.

It's both, actually. This is why Trump focused only on countries that he deems as "ripping us" off. China tried the direct import of goods, China then did COVID. Covered it up. They upped the xenophobia against U.S., Trump then says... "OK, you wanna play like that? Tariffs it is." Trump was actually relaxed at first.

They then tried going through Mexico, as imports of goods. Trump is trying to stop that. They're stealing our money bro.

And then there's buying up farmland.
Then there's... fentenayl.

Every now and then the company importing/selling the product MAY eat that cost, but that impacts THEIR income, and most companies don't want to see their income drop, so they pass those costs on to the consumer. So in all but name, it is an additional expense forced upon the consumer by the government from their action/decisions.... which is exactly what a tax ultimately is.

I already know this. I'm not stupid.

I know what Trump claims... but reality has shown otherwise time and time again. Sadly, there is a segment of society that buys into his BS. And sorry, he didn't have the "greatest economy of any president ever" during his time in office. In fact, even pre-Covid his administration didn't have the booming economy he wants to claim. I have a sneaky suspicion about mid-terms that a large number of Americans are going to realize they have been sold a pig in a poke.

Tell that to everyone who said they had booming business. Those people had a great time. I think you hate Trump so bad you'd rather do this rhetoric.

Just some light reading that maybe will help you deal with reality and not the hyperbole that Trump (and his sycophants) likes to spew. That is, if you honestly want to deal with facts and not fantasy.
I put a lot more faith in documented facts that what comes out of a "great businessman's" that has declared bankruptcy how many times now?

Keep that hatred alive. Its gonna give you life!

As I said, his use of a tactical nuke (or nukes) against Ukraine is entirely possible... but there is a BIG political cost to doing that. His country would immediately become a pariah to the majority of the countries in the world. Even China would most likely pull away from him because the fallout from supporting him after doing something like would put the final nail in China's economic issues. About the only countries that would likely to continue to support him are Belarus, North Korea and possibly Turkey.... and in the grand scheme of world economics (which is what make sthe world go around)
As I commented... he's not stupid enough to lob anything at a major country that can respond in kind, because he knows that they WILL respond.
Anyone that thinks he's just going to start throwing them around, his blustering scheme has worked on. And that's why his government did what they did... an attempt at intimidation and putting fear into others.

Yeah ...ok. Whatever.

 

[Tracy]

It's both, actually. This is why Trump focused only on countries that he deems as "ripping us" off.

You don't pay much attention to what he actually says, do you?
He has stated a 20% across the board tariff on ALL imports. And 60% tariff on goods from China. Take a minute to look around and see exactly how much product you are surrounded by that comes from China.
Generally, Trump's 20% tariff will increase every household expenses by around $4000 on average. And they cost those other countries nothing, since they are not the ones that pay that cost. So yes, welcome to a hidden tax increase courtesy of Trump's fantasy plan. It will just as successful as his claim that Mexico was going to pay for the wall.

Never mind he has threatened 100% tariffs against Mexico and a 200% tariff against John Deere if they relocate to Mexico like they have been contemplating.

Peterson Institute for International Economics concluded that Trump’s main tariff proposals – assuming that the targeted countries retaliated with their own tariffs — would slash more than a percentage point off the U.S. economy by 2026 and make inflation 2 percentage points higher next year than it otherwise would have been. Can we say "Hello Mid-terms?"

Trump want's to enact policy that is similar to what was used in the 19th century. And yet here we are in the 21st century.
What worked well back then will not work well now. And the problem with using tariffs as the bludgeon he want to, our country can be faced with the same tariffs from other countries. It's what is referred to as a trade war, and generally they do NOBODY any good.
Classic case were the farmers during Trump's previous administration. His tariffs against other countries resulted in tariffs against agricultural products from the United States. Those tariffs against the US agricultural products resulted in US farmers suffering losses in sales, which were only partially offset by BILLIONS of dollars provided by the U.S. Government to them to make up for it. Pretty sure that the increased tariffs were a loss when you take into consideration the additional financial support required to be paid out by our government to make up for the agricultural losses.
As Trump uses them, tariffs make a great sound bite... but piss poor financial policy.

And as for your earlier comment about not being taxes, tariff's amount to import taxes.

I've been a life-long Republican... but the GOP of today is not the GOP of what the core beliefs were. Sadly, Trump will have done decades of damage even after only being in office another year or two when the people see that his claims were simply bluster and he's not the genius he like to claim he is. And it will be even worse this go around because he doesn't want to have anyone around him that will disagree, so you will see "yes-men" everywhere.

 

[Carlos]

You don't pay much attention to what he actually says, do you?

Not All of it. But enough not to drive me insane like these Democrats. Look, Trump is NOT perfect. Never was, never will be. But between Biden and him...? I'd choose Trump every time. And I did for the last 3 election cycles.

He has stated a 20% across the board tariff on ALL imports. And 60% tariff on goods from China. Take a minute to look around and see exactly how much product you are surrounded by that comes from China.

Honestly, I don't care. Because for the most part, 90% of corporations today are using China for imports. That's a lot. We don't even take imports from Russia directly. Most Russian products are banned. Liquor is partly expensive because of this fact. Beer is another great example. From Mexico its cheap. But from Holland, I think...? Heineken is like $7 a can. But they make up for it by the quality of the taste. Its one of the best lagers you find on the market today. India doesn't really have a great reputation.

The best imported goods are usually Japan, Taiwan. To name a few. But China is attacking us through imports, through get this... FAKE products. Temu is being investigated by the European Union because 90% of the products are cheap trash. You should see their processing plant. They treat products like UPS/FedEx does sometimes. Throwing shit like trash. FAKE chips is another example. The computers from China? Trash.

Generally, Trump's 20% tariff will increase every household expenses by around $4000 on average. And they cost those other countries nothing, since they are not the ones that pay that cost. So yes, welcome to a hidden tax increase courtesy of Trump's fantasy plan. It will just as successful as his claim that Mexico was going to pay for the wall.

Sigh. I know this. But what is he supposed to do?

Never mind he has threatened 100% tariffs against Mexico and a 200% tariff against John Deere if they relocate to Mexico like they have been contemplating.

That's contributing to the problem we have. If you are a U.S. company and you DON'T make the products here... you SHOULD be fined. I don't care if that is expensive. I don't want trash. I keep telling people STOP BUYING FROM CHINA. Unfortunately 60% of the products on AMAZON is... China. Most of the time FAKE products.

Peterson Institute for International Economics concluded that Trump’s main tariff proposals – assuming that the targeted countries retaliated with their own tariffs — would slash more than a percentage point off the U.S. economy by 2026 and make inflation 2 percentage points higher next year than it otherwise would have been. Can we say "Hello Mid-terms?"

Do you always believe shit? We're talking about an administration that changed the word "Recession." And people actually think we are not in a recession.

NEWSFLASH motherfuckers... We are!

Trump want's to enact policy that is similar to what was used in the 19th century. And yet here we are in the 21st century.

Went over this already so skipping.

What worked well back then will not work well now. And the problem with using tariffs as the bludgeon he want to, our country can be faced with the same tariffs from other countries. It's what is referred to as a trade war, and generally they do NOBODY any good.

China is in the 18th century. In every conceivable way. The people of China right now are living under dictatorship so much, you literally cannot do business there. Its a whole article. But I recommend this video as a starter...



That's from 2019. My favorite example of why is where we at.

Classic case were the farmers during Trump's previous administration. His tariffs against other countries resulted in tariffs against agricultural products from the United States. Those tariffs against the US agricultural products resulted in US farmers suffering losses in sales, which were only partially offset by BILLIONS of dollars provided by the U.S. Government to them to make up for it. Pretty sure that the increased tariffs were a loss when you take into consideration the additional financial support required to be paid out by our government to make up for the agricultural losses.
As Trump uses them, tariffs make a great sound bite... but piss poor financial policy.

Yeah, issue is China's buying up farmlands and a whole host of other issues that I really do not have the brainpower to explain at the moment.

And as for your earlier comment about not being taxes, tariff's amount to import taxes.

Bro, when YOU go to grocery store you see the prices are high... that's THIS. What I'm saying is I want lower taxes as a personal individual from the government. Not this. "TAXES" as in YOU pay government $1000 a year and get refund. That sort of thing.

I've been a life-long Republican... but the GOP of today is not the GOP of what the core beliefs were. Sadly, Trump will have done decades of damage even after only being in office another year or two when the people see that his claims were simply bluster and he's not the genius he like to claim he is. And it will be even worse this go around because he doesn't want to have anyone around him that will disagree, so you will see "yes-men" everywhere.

I'm not a staunch Republican, but I'm not happy with the current Democrats. And to be fair to the Republicans, there is a split in there just as much as the Democrats.

It is a complicated situation that needs explaining. Right now Trump has the very best people around him this time. RFK Jr., Tulsi, Matt Gaetz, Musk. You could see this as an Avengers entourage.

 

[Tracy]

Honestly, I don't care. Because for the most part, 90% of corporations today are using China for imports. That's a lot. We don't even take imports from Russia directly. Most Russian products are banned. Liquor is partly expensive because of this fact. Beer is another great example. From Mexico its cheap. But from Holland, I think...? Heineken is like $7 a can. But they make up for it by the quality of the taste. Its one of the best lagers you find on the market today. India doesn't really have a great reputation.

And this in itself says all one needs to know about your knowledge of tariffs and how they affect our nation.
If he gets his way, your $7 Heineken will now be $8.40. To put it simply, for every $1 you used to spend, you will now be spending $1.20 on anything imported, and if it comes in from China, it will be $1.60.

That's contributing to the problem we have. If you are a U.S. company and you DON'T make the products here... you SHOULD be fined. I don't care if that is expensive.

It must be nice to have endless supplies of money, but a large part of society does not.
You seem to be fixated on China.. Guess what, this affects products from the UK, Vietnam, Taiwan, Sweden, Turkey, Spain, Mexico, Canada and EVERY OTHER COUNTRY on our planet, not just China. As for "junk from China", buy cheap, get cheap. There is more than cheap stuff that comes out of China. You do realize that a large majority of the cell phones in use over the world are produced by China or have components in them that are or are from the ROC. Ready to pay even more than you do now for them? Because those products will have a surcharge on them also usually. Even products that are manufactured in the US will be effected by the tariffs if the components they use are not manufactured here but imported. Seem that now in the 21st century we are a global market economy and trying to be isolationist is an idiotic stance to take.
It would be different if those "extra jobs" that are supposed to miraculously appear did, and their pay level was commiserate with the additional monies the companies would be making, but we all realize that won't happen. The employees will get paid the bare bones minimum and the companies will do whatever it takes to maximize their profits, and they will be boosted by their friendly MAGA GOP representatives that really don't care about the little man but more about how they can line their pockets.

At least Biden's CHIPS act was a strong attempt to get production of that vital resource back into the US, but that self-same MAGA based GOP wants to kill it - I guess because it came from a Democratic President, even though for many it is positively impacting their Republican voters.
The sad fact is, even if the production moved back to the US, the costs would be such many products would be out of the reach of a large segment of society because of the increased production costs. The choice of a business is to reduce their profits or charge more to maintain their profits. The nice thing is, for a wide-brush tariff like he says "he" will implement, it will take an act of Congress to do. He is term limited so he doesn't really care. But those in Congress don't have that protection and will have to answer to the public via another election to stay in office. The same thing that killed the Democrats (the economic "pain" perception) will kill them.

I'm not a staunch Republican, but I'm not happy with the current Democrats. And to be fair to the Republicans, there is a split in there just as much as the Democrats.

We shall see... Trump has 2 years to fulfill even some of his promises since the GOP has all 3 branches. When they fail to be able to (which will be par for the course as you have your mad-hat MAGA idiots then the more moderate GOP members who can't come to agreement) get anything done like their last House that had the majority (the fact that they didn't have the Senate or the Presidency has no bearing) and was the biggest "do-nothing" one in history, you will probably see a lot of folks deciding it's time for a change again.

 

[Carlos]

And this in itself says all one needs to know about your knowledge of tariffs and how they affect our nation.
If he gets his way, your $7 Heineken will now be $8.40. To put it simply, for every $1 you used to spend, you will now be spending $1.20 on anything imported, and if it comes in from China, it will be $1.60.

I been trying to explain to you this is is multi-faceted problem but apparently I can't explain to you this without you trying to understand. I understand your point, but Trump want to cut most taxes. Tariff would now be considered the least biggest issue at that point.

You can't even give Trump credit. Like he DID boom the economy. I can't win this argument with you trying to be this self-described asshat. I been following what you been saying on xenForo. You probably sit there and probably think I'm an idiot because you let all these losers on xenForo inspire you to engage me as hostile.

It must be nice to have endless supplies of money, but a large part of society does not.

I don't. We don't. I really detest higher prices or taxes. My thing is I'd pay for a bit more for quality service or product than cheap. You said it yourself.

You seem to be fixated on China.. Guess what, this affects products from the UK, Vietnam, Taiwan, Sweden, Turkey, Spain, Mexico, Canada and EVERY OTHER COUNTRY on our planet, not just China. As for "junk from China", buy cheap, get cheap. You do realize that a large majority of the cell phones in use over the world are produced by China or have components in them that are or are from the ROC. Ready to pay even more than you do now for them? At least Biden's CHIPS act was a strong attempt to get production of that vital resource back into the US, but that self-same MAGA based GOP wants to kill it - I guess because it came from a Democratic President, even though for many it is positively impacting their Republican voters.
The sad fact is, even if the production moved back to the US, the costs would be such many products would be out of the reach of a large segment of society because of the increased production costs. The choice of a business is to reduce their profits or charge more to maintain their profits. The nice thing is, for a wide-brush tariff like he says "he" will implement, it will take an act of Congress to do. He is term limited so he doesn't really care. But those in Congress don't have that protection and will have to answer to the public via another election to stay in office. The same thing that killed the Democrats (the economic "pain" perception) will kill them.

I get it. But how do you suppose we get quality products? Those EV's from China are exploding on a regular basis. Look, here...







Those are from the same person. I can provide more if you want.

We shall see... Trump has 2 years to fulfill even some of his promises since the GOP has all 3 branches. When they fail to be able to (which will be par for the course as you have your mad-hat MAGA idiots then the more moderate GOP members who can't come to agreement) get anything done like their last House that had the majority (the fact that they didn't have the Senate or the Presidency has no bearing) and was the biggest "do-nothing" one in history, you will probably see a lot of folks deciding it's time for a change again.

I trust Trump because he did do what he said he was gonna do, within the purview of the Democratic Senate. (Senate was Democrat at the time in 2016. So gridlocks almost every day.)

 

[Tracy]

I understand your point, but Trump want to cut most taxes. Tariff would now be considered the least biggest issue at that point.

Yeah... but how is he going to pay for those cuts. When you cut taxes, you decrease the income for the government. We are already running at a deficit and the "big money" that Trump is claiming his tariffs will bring in are going to come from the US consumer, not the foreign companies as he claims. And it will primarily negatively affect the lower and middle income tier, while those tax cuts benefit those more well off. You seem to be the one that has an issue understanding that.
When you take money away from one source (tax cuts) you either have to make up for it by an additional income stream (in Trumps case his tariffs) or you "live beyond your means" and increase the national debt (which is typical of what both parties do).
As for the "least biggest issue". Dream on. It's where Trump is claiming he will be able to pay for all these "pie in the sky" promises he's made and won't be able to keep.
Remember, this is the very same man that promised us that the wall would be paid for by Mexico.... meanwhile his administration proceeded to take $3.8 BILLION dollars from the Defense Department to pay for his beloved wall. Of course, a court had to slap his hand away from the delicious cookie jar that he wasn't supposed to be eating from, but not before $2.5 billion of that was actually diverted.
I find it amazing how ignorant so many of our voters can be to what each administration actually said they would do and what they did. Especially in todays age of the internet and being able to check up on it. The problem is we are a nation of entertainment consumers now and we don't want to get our hands dirty having to discover real data and would rather be entertained by performance artists (which Trump is one of).

I trust Trump because he did do what he said he was gonna do, within the purview of the Democratic Senate. (Senate was Democrat at the time in 2016. So gridlocks almost every day.)

Errr... you DO remember that his first 2 years the GOP had the House AND the Senate, right? And he wasn't very successful even then. That was apparent because in the mid-terms the Democrats gained power of Congress (and I foresee the same thing happening again this mid-term). Seems if he had been so successful, there would have been that might "red wave" that they so talked about instead of the light pink eddy it turned into.
Of course, that could have to do with his staff was so busy having a high turnover rate. Something like 96% turnover for his 4 year term in office? That's probably why now he only wants to be surrounded by "yes men" instead of anyone that will actually tell him the truth or be confronted with an alternative position.

 

[Carlos]

Yeah... but how is he going to pay for those cuts. When you cut taxes, you decrease the income for the government. We are already running at a deficit and the "big money" that Trump is claiming his tariffs will bring in are going to come from the US consumer, not the foreign companies as he claims. And it will primarily negatively affect the lower and middle income tier, while those tax cuts benefit those more well off. You seem to be the one that has an issue understanprimaries.

Right, ok! Tracy thinks I'm an idiot. Cool. (Untrue, though.) We are in the last phase of this economic downturn. That's why he's been harping on we're gonna make so much money. Usually its 2 years economic downturn, but we went through 5 to 6 years of recession.

When you take money away from one source (tax cuts) you either have to make up for it by an additional income stream (in Trumps case his tariffs) or you "live beyond your means" and increase the national debt (which is typical of what both parties do).
As for the "least biggest issue". Dream on. It's where Trump is claiming he will be able to pay for all these "pie in the sky" promises he's made and won't be able to keep.

Sure, buddy. Sure.

Remember, this is the very same man that promised us that the wall would be paid for by Mexico.... meanwhile his administration proceeded to take $3.8 BILLION dollars from the Defense Department to pay for his beloved wall. Of course, a court had to slap his hand away from the delicious cookie jar that he wasn't supposed to be eating from, but not before $2.5 billion of that was actually diverted.

He. had. Gridlocks. With... wait for it... Democrats. <slaps back>

I find it amazing how ignorant so many of our voters can be to what each administration actually said they would do and what they did. Especially in todays age of the internet and being able to check up on it. The problem is we are a nation of entertainment consumers now and we don't want to get our hands dirty having to discover real data and would rather be entertained by performance artists (which Trump is one of).

Sure, buddy... sure.

Errr... you DO remember that his first 2 years the GOP had the House AND the Senate, right?

Right, but this is the inexperienced Trump. Today, we have full 4 years of Republicans with Trump at helm.

And he wasn't very successful even then. That was apparent because in the mid-terms the Democrats gained power of Congress (and I foresee the same thing happening again this mid-term). Seems if he had been so successful, there would have been that might "red wave" that they so talked about instead of the light pink eddy it turned into.

See, here, you reflect what I just said. That Dems had gridlocks with Trump. But here's the thing though; this time. We gonna have 4 years of Republicans in house. We have the trifecta, regardless. So no gridlocks. Unless the current Republicans want to go against Trump, at which point, they will be primaried.

Of course, that could have to do with his staff was so busy having a high turnover rate. Something like 96% turnover for his 4 year term in office? That's probably why now he only wants to be surrounded by "yes men" instead of anyone that will actually tell him the truth or be confronted with an alternative position.

You realize RFK Jr. Is a Democrat...? Right?
You realize Tulsi is a Democrat....? Right??
You realize that Elon Musk is a Democrat...? Right?

Far from "Yes men."

Democrats today is the communist. They banned RFK Jr from running as president on the Democrat side.
Meet Kevin was banned from running as a Democrat governor to make Gavin Newsom as the default Democrat winner.

 

[Tracy]

We gonna have 4 years of Republicans in house.

We shall see... I on the other hand prognosticate that in 2026, the House and the Senate will roll back to the Democrats after the GOP continues to walk on their crank. They are going to end up, if they let Trump have his way, quickly killing the economy.
You HAVE seen how many companies are already stating that they will be raising their product prices if the tariffs go through, right? Explain to me how China (or any other nation that is charged tariffs and the product price increase because of it) is going to reimburse us the consumer for the additional cost that those companies charge? Remember... the Gold Man said that those other countries pay those costs, not the US consumer.

You realize RFK Jr. Is a Democrat...? Right?

Wrong... RFK is someone that changes their party to fit their desires (hey, kind of like Trump has been).
He ran as a Democrat... then he ran as a Libertarian... and he espouses conservative views. Doesn't smell like your typical Democrat to me. Sounds more like an opportunist. Not to mention his wacked-out conspiracy driven life.

You realize that Elon Musk is a Democrat...? Right?

You realize that the ONLY reason Musk is in favor right now is the amount of money he gave Trump. Trump is a transactional creature. Once Musk says or does something that Trump disagrees with (or any of the ones you named) they will be out.

You realize Tulsi is a Democrat....? Right??

Then explain to me why a LONG time Republican, that voted in support of the GOP supported Harris?
Gabbard would have been considered a Blue Dog Democrat back in the day. The problem was that the Democrats trended left while she stated centered... and then you have the GOP that swung extreme right. She saw an opportunity to "get ahead" since she could not hang with the current crop of Democrats. The sad thing is that it left those of us in the middle with two poor choices.

So yes, right now he's surrounding himself with yes men, that only tell him what he wants to hear. Give it 12 months and you will see the majority of those gone and new replacements in place I am sure.

See, here, you reflect what I just said. That Dems had gridlocks with Trump.

His first two years (where he had the MOST political capital) the GOP was in control. And very little really got done.
Where was that great healthcare replacement for the Affordable Care Act? Where was that restoration of manufacturing (funny, seems Biden had a better track record of getting that done even with him having 2 years of the other party controlling the House).

I really hope that I won't be in the position of coming back later and telling you "I told you so"... but past history indicates that possibility is extremely high. There is enough in-fighting in the GOP that the Democrats will simply need to sit back, laugh, point their fingers and let the GOP do their work for them.
The ironic thing is there are already numerous MAGA members that are no longer happy with their choice they made.

 

[Tracy]

(Senate was Democrat at the time in 2016. So gridlocks almost every day.)

Meant to mention:

The Republican Party retained their majority in both the House and the Senate, and, with inauguration of Donald Trump on January 20, 2017, attained an overall federal government trifecta for the first time since the 109th Congress in 2005.

So sorry.... Democrats were NOT in control of the Senate when he became President. That's kinda what a trifecta means. One party controls it all, just like this time. And like last time when the GOP had all three branches, he'll most likely loose at least one, if not both of the House and the Senate in mid-terms - which has historically been what has happened.
Also, note the word retained. Means they had the control prior to that also.
Revisionist history is easily shown to be incorrect.