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Banishing Lucifer from Heaven

The Raven

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It is known that the God pushed Lucifer out of Heaven with third of all heavenly angels who were deceived by him.
Lucifer is known as light bearer, the morning star, an archangel to rule over all angels in the heaven, the most powerful one. Yet, he thought he can ascend above God itself and so he started gathering army of angels to usurp the throne of God. In doing so, many angels were deceived by him and joined him for simple reason God did nothing about it. How can all mighty God allow Lucifer to gather angels without doing anything. This made them think God is weak and Lucifer is strong.

Angels who refused to join told God of his intentions but God did nothing for he was patient and knew that no thing of his creation can harm him in any way. Once all angels were tested, God empowered Michael, the prince of Angels, the angel who wields sword and is an angel of justice. So, Michael led 2/3 of angels from heaven against Lucifer and he was thrown out of heaven with all of his angels never to return.

Now, as a prisoner on Earth, Lucifer (now known as Satan - a father of lies) managed to trick Adam into sin and by doing so he took the power over humans and escaped his prison. Now he rules the realm over the humans (not truly).

It is also a false belief that Satan rules Hell. Only God (and his son Jesus) are the rulers of Hell, Earth and Heaven. Satan has no true power other than deception. His hatred towards God made him hate humans and he desire to prove how feeble God's creation is because they can be deceived by him just as were the angels in heaven.



Now, what do you think of this? Me, as a believer find this truly amazing and remarkable.
 
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Yeah, I don't think people really know the Bible, even those who study it. For instance, a lot of people think hell is eternal and if you don't share that view you're a softy, and of course, other errors involve taking passages as literal when they may have been stories.
 
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Yeah, I don't think people really know the Bible, even those who study it. For instance, a lot of people think hell is eternal and if you don't share that view you're a softy, and of course, other errors involve taking passages as literal when they may have been stories.
How can one know Bible when the book is veeeery extensive for reading, probably the longest of all the books. Everything is written in some kind of poetic verses and symbolic meanings. Many times Lucifer is reffered as The beast, the dragon with 7 heads, and few other heads with many horns. This is not literal visual representation of Lucifer. This is a poetic way of saying how many empires are under his rule and what will happen to those empires who worship him.
 
How can one know Bible when the book is veeeery extensive for reading, probably the longest of all the books. Everything is written in some kind of poetic verses and symbolic meanings. Many times Lucifer is reffered as The beast, the dragon with 7 heads, and few other heads with many horns. This is not literal visual representation of Lucifer. This is a poetic way of saying how many empires are under his rule and what will happen to those empires who worship him.
That's right and how can certain Bible belt people think they know-it-all about the Bible and you're dead wrong and a fool if you disagree?
 
That's right and how can certain Bible belt people think they know-it-all about the Bible and you're dead wrong and a fool if you disagree?
Some people think they know it all but that's wrong. The thing is, we are given simple rules to follow so that we become good people. Many other parts in the Bible are prophecies and if it is simple to know, we would do something about it. Prophecies are more a proof that there is consistency of God's plan, a proof he knew what will happen.

For most, chapter of Revelation is the most interesting one because it represents end of time and human history, the ultimate battle between evil and good, a day of justice.


The thing is that church is studying Bible and most likely has the best answers about it. I speak of Ortodox Christianity. We have college here for studying religions which lasts 4 years. You study not only Christianity, but Islam, Judaism.
 
It's a really good fairy tale.
Maybe in godless country where you live. People in my country went for finding a cure to monasteries and monks did perform something that science couldn't help. Oh yeah, it is a prayer. But, for godless people it is a fairy tale.
 
But, for godless people it is a fairy tale.
For intelligent people it's a fairy tale. There is no such thing as god, it's a fantasy concocted to keep the masses in line. It's a mechanism of control. When the King James bible was written (by around 50 scholars!) life was terrible for most people. Religion was used to keep the masses in line. You'll get your reward in heaven, right? But play nice in this world, obey the ten commandments or you'll go to hell. It's classic psychological control. It amazes me that people these days still buy it! Delusional.

Do you still believe in Santa Claus? Why not?
Do you believe in the Easter Bunny? Why not?
Fairies? Elves? No?

There is as much evidence that the Tooth Fairy exists as there is that god exists. The sooner people grow up and accept the obvious, the sooner we will stop killing each other over who has the best imaginary friend.
 
You are funny. I pity you.
Impressive argument for the validity of your belief system. You have absolutely no proof of your god so you dismiss hard evidence to the contrary. It’s the equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and going “la la la”. Real mature, but then that’s to be expected from someone who believes their imaginary friend is real. 😂

I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.
 
I can understand arguments against Christianity in the thread, but don't believe them. Anyway, so much abuse against children and needless political tyranny that it's soured many people and yet, some fundamentalists demand prayer in school and think society is falling due to lack of it. 😄

My own take is Satan is at war and has made many religious people terrible examples of the real God. In fact, even religious people had Jesus executed.
 
I can understand arguments against Christianity in the thread, but don't believe them.
Jason, my argument is not against Christianity. Far from it. Jesus taught love and forgiveness. There is not enough of that in the world. We need more and if people need to believe in a god in order to do that it speaks volumes about the human condition and feeds into what I said before about religion being used to keep people in line. I believe that Jesus was a real person. I believe he started a movement. I believe that he was crucified. I dispute that he was the son of god. I have no issue with people following the teachings of Christ - insofar as kindness, forgiveness and treating the worst off with compassion.

My issue is seemingly intelligent people believing in something that there is no proof of. There is no proof that god exists. It is faith based. We have a society grounded in science. You are an intelligent person. This belief in a divine being is the last vestiges of belief in the supernatural. Its time we as a society moved on from this. Religion has been the cause of more wars and more death than any other factor in history.

And this is what sticks in my craw. I know my fellow man exists yet some religious teachings tell me that I should kill my fellow man because he doesn't believe in the same god as me. At least 18,000 different gods, goddesses and various animals or objects have been worshipped by humans.

So, as I quoted to the seemingly unchristian thread starter;

I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.
 
Jason, my argument is not against Christianity. Far from it. Jesus taught love and forgiveness. There is not enough of that in the world. We need more and if people need to believe in a god in order to do that it speaks volumes about the human condition and feeds into what I said before about religion being used to keep people in line. I believe that Jesus was a real person. I believe he started a movement. I believe that he was crucified. I dispute that he was the son of god. I have no issue with people following the teachings of Christ - insofar as kindness, forgiveness and treating the worst off with compassion.

My issue is seemingly intelligent people believing in something that there is no proof of. There is no proof that god exists. It is faith based. We have a society grounded in science. You are an intelligent person. This belief in a divine being is the last vestiges of belief in the supernatural. Its time we as a society moved on from this. Religion has been the cause of more wars and more death than any other factor in history.

And this is what sticks in my craw. I know my fellow man exists yet some religious teachings tell me that I should kill my fellow man because he doesn't believe in the same god as me. At least 18,000 different gods, goddesses and various animals or objects have been worshipped by humans.

So, as I quoted to the seemingly unchristian thread starter;
A lot of times people are moved by fear. For instance now misogyny is being emphasized in some churches to counter gay rights. Anyway, what these Christians don't get is everybody can't be the same. For instance, I'm more an intellectual type and my knowledge of car or home repair is limited, but I'm definitely a straight man. 😂
 
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Lucifer still has ready access to God, if we consult the book of Job:

Job 1:6-12 said:
6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and [c]Satan also came among them. 7 The Lord said to Satan, “From where do you come?” Satan answered the Lord and said, “From roaming about on the earth and walking around on it.” 8 The Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, fearing God and turning away from evil.” 9 Then Satan answered the Lord, “Does Job fear God for nothing? 10 Have You not made a fence around him and his house and all that he has, on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. 11 But reach out with Your hand now and touch all that he has; he will certainly curse You to Your face.” 12 Then the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your power; only do not reach out and put your hand on him.” So Satan departed from the presence of the Lord.

What you are looking at is probably the book of Revelation, which talks about Satan getting thrown out of heaven. I'm not a theologian with proper training, but I'm pretty sure that Satan's eviction from heaven is a future event that parallels the AntiChrist's future rise to power.

Another Scripture that indicates that Satan still has access to heaven:

Jude 1:9 said:
But Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him an abusive judgment, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!”

So Michael hasn't thrown Satan out of there. He's such a wuss that he wouldn't even verbally condemn the snake over a righteous man's dead body.

Anyway, I've been in enough debates to know better to debate the truth of Christianity on a secular forum. But if you're going to talk about something, get your facts straight. By far the biggest problem with Christianity these days is that the average Christian doesn't know their Bible, doesn't read it, and even if they do read it, our Bibles are translations which are divorced from the original culture and language, and thus have lost some meaning. Then the lay people who have only read a translation try to interpret it with no knowledge and get it horrendously wrong.

The thing is, we are given simple rules to follow so that we become good people.
This is not the teachings of Christianity, that is legalism. The Bible clearly teaches that rules and laws cannot transform.

Galatians 2:21 said:
I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.”

That's the most blatent quote, but that is the main thrust of Paul's argument throughout the entire book of Galatians. Not only that, but the entire Old Testament is proof that laws and rules cannot make people better. God gave his people his perfect rulebook, and they went and committed infant homicide in service to Molech the false idol. So much for the success of that plan. :p

Even after the Jewish people learned to follow the rulebook after the Babylonian captivity, the result was the Pharisees, and those dudes hardly scored any goodness points with Jesus:

Matthew 23:23-27 said:
23 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cumin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the Law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others. 24 You blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!

25 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and of the dish, but inside they are full [y]of robbery and self-indulgence. 26 You blind Pharisee, first clean the inside of the cup and of the dish, so that the outside of it may also become clean.

27 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which on the outside appear beautiful, but inside they are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness. 28 So you too, outwardly appear righteous to people, but inwardly you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.

In case that esoteric language flew over your head, this is basically the first centaury equivalent of telling someone to go to hell.

The only way anyone becomes better is by submitting to Christ's rightful authority as Savior and Lord, and believing that Christ's death and resurrection paid for the fact that we aren't good enough to follow the Law perfectly. When you have done so, God sends the Holy Spirit into your life to help you understand the Scriptures, the whole counsel of God, and thus the sanctification process begins, which is individual and unique, but roots out sin and death gradually over time as we are conformed to the image of Christ Jesus.

Rules cannot transform us into good people. Only God can do that.

My issue is seemingly intelligent people believing in something that there is no proof of. There is no proof that god exists. It is faith based.
Everything is faith based. Knowledge itself depends on faith. I have faith that the moon is not cheese based on scientific evidence presented by other humans. I have faith that Abraham Lincoln existed based on historical documents. I have faith that God exists based on personal experience, since I submitted myself to His transformation when I was 12 and it actually worked.
 
Everything is faith based.
Faith is a state of mind that leads people to believe something – it does not matter what – in the total absence of supporting evidence. If there were good supporting evidence, then faith would be superfluous, for the evidence would compel us to believe it anyway.

There is evidence that the moon isn't made of cheese. There is evidence that Abe Lincoln lived. There is no evidence of god. That's why you need faith.
 
Faith is a state of mind that leads people to believe something – it does not matter what – in the total absence of supporting evidence.
I never agreed to that definition. Faith is believing something to be true in the absence of direct observational evidence. It means that I believe what someone else has told me and that they aren't lying without observing that they aren't.

It means I believe that the moon is not cheese without going to the moon myself - I trust that the moon landing was real and the scientists were telling the truth. It means that I believe the historical accounts that said Abraham Lincoln existed. It means that I trust the words of a 2,000 year old book to explain to me how reality works.

There is no evidence of god.
What evidence do you have that God doesn't exist? :p If you can't disprove his existence, there's a possibility He could exist somewhere.
 
I never agreed to that definition. Faith is believing something to be true in the absence of direct observational evidence. It means that I believe what someone else has told me and that they aren't lying without observing that they aren't.

It means I believe that the moon is not cheese without going to the moon myself - I trust that the moon landing was real and the scientists were telling the truth. It means that I believe the historical accounts that said Abraham Lincoln existed. It means that I trust the words of a 2,000 year old book to explain to me how reality works.


What evidence do you have that God doesn't exist? :p If you can't disprove his existence, there's a possibility He could exist somewhere.
Science change its views always. As science progresses the more we learn.
 
I never agreed to that definition.
Whether you agree with the definition or not is irrelevant.

https://www.merriam-webster.com :
a
(1) : belief and trust in and loyalty to God
(2) : belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion
b
(1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof

https://www.collinsdictionary.com :

1. strong or unshakeable belief in something, esp without proof or evidence
2. a specific system of religious beliefs
the Jewish faith
3. Christianity
trust in God and in his actions and promises
4. a conviction of the truth of certain doctrines of religion, esp when this is not based on reason

I'll take dictionary definitions of faith over your personal understanding of the word.

What evidence do you have that God doesn't exist? :p If you can't disprove his existence, there's a possibility He could exist somewhere.

There's two parts to this.

First, if you accept that faith is the only proof you need that god exists then you must also believe in:
  • Waheguru: The one God in Sikhism.
  • Amaterasu: Sun goddess and a major deity in Shintoism.
  • Inari: Deity of rice, fertility, and prosperity in Shintoism.
  • Brahma: The creator god in the Hindu trinity.
  • Vishnu: The preserver god in the Hindu trinity.
  • Shiva: The destroyer god in the Hindu trinity.
  • Lakshmi: Hindu Goddess of wealth and prosperity.
  • Saraswati: Hindu Goddess of knowledge and the arts.
  • Durga: Hindu Goddess of power and protection.
  • Ganesha: Hindu Elephant-headed god of wisdom and obstacles.
And maybe also:
  • Ra: The sun god.
  • Isis: Goddess of motherhood and magic.
  • Anubis: God of the afterlife and mummification.
What about:
  • Zeus: King of the gods.
  • Athena: Goddess of wisdom and warfare.
  • Apollo: God of the sun and music.
  • Aphrodite: Goddess of love and beauty.
As I have quoted previously, "I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."

Second, arguments against the existence of god/s. The burden of proof sits with those who claim something exists rather than those who posit the opposite. However, I'll play along.

1) Consider the omnipotence paradox. Can god create a rock so heavy that he cannot lift it? If he cannot then he is not omnipotent. If he can, guess what, he is not omnipotent. Since omnipotence is a major characteristic of your god, that omnipotence is disproved with a simple paradox your god cannot exist.

2) The origin of the universe and diversity of life can be explained through direct empirical evidence. Conversely, there is no empirical evidence of god.

3) Evil, pain and injustice exist. If an all-powerful, all-loving god existed these things would not.

4) If god existed he would make his existence more obvious than it is. Ergo, he does not exist.

5) That there are multiple religions and multiple gods, either one of them is right or more likely - none (as an example, if the Christian god exists, 1.2 billion Hindu's are wrong).

At no point has anyone in this thread been able to provide any evidence or even an argument for the existence of gods. The only thing believers have is 'faith', and that's no basis for a solid argument. My children have faith that Santa exists. Do we accept that since they have faith they must be right? There is no evidence of his existence. The same applies to the easter bunny, the tooth fairy, elves, goblins, leprechauns, ghosts and anything else 'supernatural' including gods. You have no argument. You have no proof. There is no god.
 
Whether you agree with the definition or not is irrelevant.
If you stubbornly insist on holding onto your opinion, what is the point in talking to you? A good debate practice is to agree on definitions of words, instead of forcing your definition on your opponent.

The dictionary definitions exist the way that they are because, as you said, faith outside the Christian practice is irrational and frequently leads to believing things in the absence of evidence. For example, there isn't any evidence that Mohammad was a prophet, and plenty that he was a madman, at least from my perspective. His behavior and actions outside of the book strike me as mad, and reading the Quran, it's all rambling poetry that didn't seem cogent. But people throw themselves into buildings, committing suicide over that.

First, if you accept that faith is the only proof you need that god exists
I didn't accept it. The existence of God needs more proof than blind faith. Otherwise, you're right. There's nothing to distinguish any religion from another.

Christianity is predicated on accepting the truth of several actual historical events based on the coherency of the Biblical text. The first notable historical event would be Christ's death and resurrection. The latter was attested to by 500 eyewitnesses, and the Bible offers 4 separate accounts of Christ's life from 4 different people from 4 different walks of life. Mark was a servant living with his mom, Matthew was a sellout to the Roman conquerors, Luke was a doctor and a member of the 1%, and John was a fisherman. You think the poor people and the rich agree on anything unless it actually happened?

The second notable events are the series of events that happened to the nation of ancient Israel. The Bible gets those events accurate. There's also the fact that Daniel predicted the rise of empires in the Book of Daniel, and those empires rose and fell exactly how Daniel said they would.

The second thing that distinguishes Christianity from other religions is the fact that God died for His people and rose again to pay for their sins. This is distinct from every other world religion, which is all about following rules to try to be good enough for God or gods or achieving nirvana or whatever.

Which leads to the third distinction - the clarity, consistency, and cogency of the Biblical text. Other religions and gods have very little surviving text, and those that do largely contain teachings in isolation without telling stories of actual historical events. The Bible clearly specifies how God intervened in history.

Since the Bible is a reliable historical document, it then stands to reckon that it is correct about another historical event, that would be the creation of the world. That certainly strikes me as more rational than trying to establish faith in the big bang. This universe burns energy through entropy and thus needs an infinite energy source to power it, and it's hard for me to believe that infinite energy doesn't have infinite intelligence. After all, if I have intelligence as a finite being, how much more does infinite energy have the potential for thought?

That also rules out the idea of multiple "gods" powering the universe. Multiple finite forms of energy aren't enough to power the cosmos, and they don't add up to infinite power. And if there is infinite power, there aren't multiple sources of it, otherwise it would no longer be infinite power. Thus, there is only one God.
As I have quoted previously, "I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."
I dismiss all other possible Gods based on: 1. lack of historical evidence of their existence, 2. lack of cogency in writings pointing to them, 3. inconsistency with the requirements of what this universe needs to operate, 4. a legalist approach that is insufficient for man's needs for salvation.

You dismiss my God based on selfishness, irrationality, ignorance, and a trite statement that you dug up on the Internet that you use as a conversation stopper to whip debate opponents into submission.

:p

1) Consider the omnipotence paradox. Can god create a rock so heavy that he cannot lift it? If he cannot then he is not omnipotent. If he can, guess what, he is not omnipotent. Since omnipotence is a major characteristic of your god, that omnipotence is disproved with a simple paradox your god cannot exist.
I will not, since that paradox is a thought trap that is based on a logical fallacy. You basically are giving the person a question as a trap question based a false premise, and when the person buys into answering the question, they are playing into your trap because you have set your beliefs up as the authority behind the question.

Infinite power cannot overcome itself, otherwise it would no longer be infinite. This is a true statement, regardless of what you believe. Further, infinite power doesn't care about your rocks or lifting them and will instead blast you into oblivion for being disrespectful and asking questions that only benefit you.

2) The origin of the universe and diversity of life can be explained through direct empirical evidence. Conversely, there is no empirical evidence of god.
em·pir·i·cal
/imˈpirək(ə)l/
based on, concerned with, or verifiable by observation or experience rather than theory or pure logic.

Uh huh. I'm sure that you've observed and experienced the moment when the universe came into existence. :p That was sarcasm. None of us have, and none of us have direct empirical evidence of the universe's origin.

Conversely, I have direct empirical evidence of God changing my life and making me a better person every day.
3) Evil, pain and injustice exist. If an all-powerful, all-loving god existed these things would not.
*yawns* Really? Without evil, pain, and injustice, human beings wouldn't have freedom of choice. Love exists only when freedom of choice is allowed. I chose to love my boyfriend over all other candidates for the position. If I was forced to act in his better interest, that is not love and that is slavery.

Is it loving to keep people as slaves? Are you really going to justify the Southern slaveholders in the U.S. and say how they treat their slaves as "loving"? Yeah I didn't think so either. A loving God doesn't treat us that way because he wants us to be able to love Him back.
4) If god existed he would make his existence more obvious than it is. Ergo, he does not exist.
Forcibly intervening in history and writing an entire book about His existence isn't good enough for you? Dying for your sins by enduring an excruciating death isn't enough? Would you believe if God stepped down from heaven and whacked you upside the head? Nope, clearly you were hallucinating when that happened. :p
5) That there are multiple religions and multiple gods, either one of them is right or more likely - none (as an example, if the Christian god exists, 1.2 billion Hindu's are wrong).
That's what you believe. Interestingly enough, Christianity explains all other religions as lies of Satan, and it makes sense that human beings prone to sinning would be easily taken in by his deceptions. It's also pretty obvious that, if following the Old Testament laws didn't make humanity better, following the teachings of the Krishna ain't gonna cut it. We need a bigger intervention to deal with our moral depravity than that.

Anyway, I'm done "throwing pearls to swine" as the Bible says. Have fun being insane. :) I understand the parties are great.
 
The thing is, we are given simple rules to follow so that we become good people.

Morality is not exclusive to religion. It is a subjective human concept that has been utilized by different countries and cultures. It is defined and seen differently by other people. What you may believe to be moral, someone else could look at and disagree. I do not believe that being a Christian makes them a good person. I have met many Christians that act immorally, yet preach and force their views onto others and act like that's okay when it is not.
 
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